Phantom_Performer's blog

Whats your opinion about Div4
By Phantom_Performer, history, 2 years ago, In English

I have been thinking about making a contest, I would like to know your opinion about div4 contests,if there are users who are interested I would love to make one! thanks in advance!

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

Should the contest be rated?

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
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    If MikeMirzayanov allows, why not :)

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +4 Vote: I do not like it

    I think it could be rated only for newbie and pupil, as rated divisions get decreased with decrease in division number.

    Like for experts div 2 is rated , but div 3 is unrated.

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2 years ago, # |
← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

I personally thought D4 was a good idea, and I'm sad they discontinued.

Update: reading other's thoughts changed my mind. I'm against D4 now.

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +64 Vote: I do not like it

I don't think a div 4 contest is necessary. Beginners can attempt 2-3 problems in a div 3 contest and 1-2 problems in a div 2 contest. Div 4 will be a speed run rather than a learning opportunity.

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2 years ago, # |
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I think Div. 4 can be a good idea specially for people who have started very recently, or are planning to start soon, maybe it can give them the motivation they need to start, as it's very satisfying to get the right answer to a problem.

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -6 Vote: I do not like it

I will be a good idea. but it should be rated only for newbies. What is your opinion?

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +9 Vote: I do not like it

There was one experimental Div4 round in the past. But community decided not to continue, apparently. The main argument, from what I remember, was that the target audience of Div4 rounds should practice standard easy problems on Leetcode. You can read the discussion on the topic by following this link:

https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/77028

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +123 Vote: I do not like it

For me, it happened like this. Preparing a high-quality Div4 round turned out to require even more difficult than Div3. The fact is that it is not easy to come up with interesting simple problems. For a typical div3, quite often I can come up with ideas for problems E-G faster than for A-C.

I also have an idea that it makes sense to make div4 very implementation-oriented in general. Just consider them as programming exercises for beginners. And do not even try to add smart ideas, namely, focus on the development of programming skills.

If one of the reputable and experienced members of the community comes up with an offer to take on the job of conducting some kind of experiment, then we can try.

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it -37 Vote: I do not like it

    Couldn't Div. 4 contests be used as an opportunity for aspiring problem setters to get practice? These Div. 4 rounds wouldn't matter much, so the problems wouldn't need to be perfect and be crafted by reputable members. I think many low-level participants just want to feel the satisfaction of solving more than 1 or 2 problems, they don't care too much about quality.

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      2 years ago, # ^ |
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      I don't think even newbie coders would like to solve problems with mediocre quality. There are some problems which were based on very simple ideas that I saw in the first few months in my journey which were very fascinating to me. I think if the contests that I participated in would just be unnecessarily implementation heavy and not interesting problems (possibility with new problemsetters), I would have gotten bored and quit. I think the status quo is good enough, people can start practicing with leetcode easies anyway

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
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    I also have an idea that it makes sense to make div4 very implementation-oriented in general. Just consider them as programming exercises for beginners. And do not even try to add smart ideas, namely, focus on the development of programming skills.

    Or add an extra very easy problem in such a style to Div3 Contests. Pick a common or well known task/algorithm, add some change so code can't just be copied from Stackoverflow or any tutorial page, but explain the problem in detail (like in an Editorial, just without pseudocode or a actual implementation, maybe even mention common pitfalls and wanted complexity).

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
    ← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +74 Vote: I do not like it

    hi, sounds like a cool experiment! Me and mesanu would like to take up the job. We have some experience from setting 2 official Codeforces rounds and national rounds for beginner participants.

    Please contact me or mesanu after you considered our proposal.

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +5 Vote: I do not like it

Just make div3 easier.

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +15 Vote: I do not like it

    I don't really understand this opinion. I have always tried to make contests so that they are interesting to all real official participants. So, if I was preparing Div2, it was absolutely normal that the problems would seem boring and uninteresting for the red participant. But here, every participant from gray to purple must find something interesting, a challenge to their skills.

    It is clearly seen that even leaving only trusted participants in most of our Div.3 there are several (sometimes dozens) participants who solve all the problems. Well, why in this case lower the difficulty? It seems that according to such a metric (the average number of those who solved all the problems among only trusted participants), Div3 rounds are already above all.

    On the other hand, each Div3 round usually has 3-4 problems available to green and above participants.

    Of course, the grays and low greens can get a little bored even in Div3 rounds sometimes. That's why I was considering doing Div4 as well.

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      2 years ago, # ^ |
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      the average number of those who solved all the problems among only trusted participants

      I don't agree with this metric. Div1 contests should be interesting for the top participants so they could compete and enjoy the challenge. Div2 and div3 are for training and learning. If somebody is good and solves all problems, they move to the next division anyway. What is wrong with many people solving all problems in div3?

      I would be ok with the following statistics:
      - div1: 0.5% of participants solve all problems, and the median number of solved problems is 2 out of 5 or 6
      - div3: 5% of participants solve all problems, and the median number of solved problems is 4 out of 6 or 7

      So I agree with this old comment https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/77028?#comment-618460

      Div3 contests should also have shorter statements to encourage beginners and school pupils (who often don't speak English well).

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        2 years ago, # ^ |
          Vote: I like it +11 Vote: I do not like it

        Do you want to join to discussion between me and SlavicG+mesanu about Div4? For now, I don't want Div3 concepts but we can hear and use your ideas about Div4.

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      2 years ago, # ^ |
      ← Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +54 Vote: I do not like it

      Mike, please create Division 1.5. Some (not all, of course) Div 2 rounds have hard enough problems at the end to make an interesting contest for oranges and low reds (packing purples into this division would be good too). I don't think it makes sense to have participants in this rating range waiting until the next Div 1 just because we don't have hard enough Div 1 E/F problems for LGMs.

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2 years ago, # |
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Would be very helpful and motivating, please go ahead

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -10 Vote: I do not like it

Really interested to know about what should be the ideal problems in a Div 4 round.

Should the problems be problems that are considered standard(problems like 2-Sum), easy problems(like current Div4 A,B Codechef problems which are sometimes printing A/B) or programming implementation tasks ( simulating some kind of process ).

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2 years ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +14 Vote: I do not like it

I think a viable alternative to a Div. 4 round would be having EDU section being developed. My humble opinion based on my previous experience is as follows. People that struggle with Div.3 problems usually lack basic knowledge and problem solving experience which can be caught on in EDU Practice section. pashka has already made a lot of good content there.

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    2 years ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +13 Vote: I do not like it

    Wholeheartedly agree with your point, but I think the problem here might that problem creation and content creation are quite different. Plus I think content creation might be actually a more difficult task than creating problems for div4 and probably more time-consuming.

    Nevertheless, EDU holds a special place for me as it is one of the best content out there for the topic it holds and all of the topic I learned were from edu itself. I will very more than happy to see EDU come back to life as it helps me grow so much

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